IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

topic posted Tue, March 20, 2007 - 2:45 PM by  Stacy

Have you seen these yet? I have been taking live classes with Steven Sashen and we asked him to make them public. He finally, after 2 years, did!

They are the fastest way I've ever experienced nonduality.

Stacy


www.advancedmeditation.com/cmd.php
posted by:
Stacy
Colorado
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

    Tue, March 20, 2007 - 5:45 PM
    and the slowest way was?
    • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

      Tue, July 24, 2007 - 10:49 AM
      Slowest way? I'm tempted to say "doing nothing," but that, too, must work for *someone*.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

        Tue, July 24, 2007 - 12:37 PM
        hey Stacey - glad you came back. thought you were a spammer and not a real person at all. we get those from time to time here. the wise ass 'slowest way' remark was meant, in a sense, rhetorically, but then again i wasn't expecting an answer. so the way it was really intended was to draw attention to the idea that is central and key in advaita - that really there is no one doing anything (someone here will prob'ly take exception to this notion, by the way, but it is my understanding), so in that sense, there is no fast way or slow way, and no one to get enlightened. now, having said this, it's good to understand that it's just conceptual and not in anyway true. what is true and real is always there but not in anyway realizable conceptually.

        but having said that, i have to say, me, i'm not attached to any of it. not anymore. i really don't care. so, i guess i do get pretty close to doing nothing, at least in the sense that i'm not trying to make anything happen or do anything spiritually. i recently had the stunning realization that i wasn't. and hadn't been for sometime, spiritually seeking. it was shocking given that i'd been doing it - seeking spiritually - for awhile.
        anyway, doing nothing - now that's hard, in fact, impossible, being that it's a veritable contradiction in terms.

        cheers! glad you're here.
  • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

    Wed, March 21, 2007 - 9:42 AM
    I wonder if Non Duality is impossible at it's most basic level. We're spirit and body, often with two seperate purposes and even if they had the same purpose, it's still another form of duality. I believe duality is the gravity that holds us in this place, time and form. I think we need it to live and be Spiritual. Kind of like one end of the spectrum is Spirit / Soul while the other is Body / Ego. I think I stroll from side to side taking in what I need from both ends and applying it to my life, but I am of the opinion that duality must exist for us to exist.

    Just a thought.
    • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

      Wed, March 21, 2007 - 11:51 AM
      I find that all duality is thought - including body. Ramana used to ask, "were you aware of body in deep sleep?" But something was aware or you would not be able to say "I wasn't aware". What comes and goes (including the body & the I-thought) is said by the great masters to be unreal. What is Here always? Without movement of mind there is just being That. Upon self consciousness (or the I-thought) the whole world and a myriad of thoughts appear, being the sense of duality.
      Just another thought. :)
    • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

      Mon, November 26, 2007 - 7:27 AM
      If we are a rainbow myriad of people and experiences, that too is one :) What you say is true, a non dual experience does not exist. Where would it? Incredibly the non-existent can form and be empty of form - so the Buddhists tell us . . .
    • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

      Sun, December 30, 2007 - 12:20 PM
      Katrina wrote...
      > I wonder if Non Duality is impossible at it's most basic level. We're spirit and body

      Our experience of just-now is before words, before ideas, before thinking. Then when thinking appears, it can slice up that original pure experience in all sorts of ways: good/bad, self/other, spirit/body, etc. Any type of duality, such as "spirit and body," is made by thinking.

      "Non Duality" is one of a zillion words that can be used to point to our direct experience, before we split it up with all these concepts. What are you doing right now?

      Stuart
      stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/
  • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

    Wed, March 21, 2007 - 11:54 PM
    As much as I admire Steve – I consider him a friend – there is no way to "experience" nonduality.

    It's not a thought, feeling or sensation of any kind. Anything you have an experience of is not the nondual truth.
    • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

      Thu, March 22, 2007 - 9:28 AM
      So what is it exactly?
      • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

        Thu, March 22, 2007 - 10:51 AM
        Good question! Seekers spend lifetimes on this question. Adyashanti said once that that curiosity is so important. He sees in many just before Awakening that very curiosity just burning through the seeker. He also talks about the importance of surrender. Some become very attached to control - wanting to "make" the Awakening happen. So sitting in that curiosity and knowing there is nothing "you" can do to make it happen. I've also found surrendering the "need" to know or understand helps. So just Be. How? I like to say that ego is simply an argument against what Is. :)
        • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

          Thu, March 22, 2007 - 10:04 AM
          Kalia,

          I like reading your responses, never any judgement or control. You say very peacefully what's on your mind and I really appreciate how genuine & gentle your messages are : ) I'm valuing honesty more and more, it's not easy to keep my Self honest to my heart and intentions so when I feel others are (and I can pretty clearly) it helps me to better distinguish and see my own path.

          I'm looking for that grace in balance, it's not easy for me to find. I think I look for that before I look for deeper understanding. One thing at a time right : )

          Love,

          Katrina
      • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

        Thu, March 22, 2007 - 10:51 AM
        > So what is it exactly?
        *****
        It's jnana, an experiential understanding that is nothing more than the recognition of the ongoing, living truth of our identity as the Atman. It's not a state of any kind, but an internal "knowing" that's unlike any other kind of knowing, one that is ever-present in all, but rarely recognized, despite the millions of dollars people spend to get "it". Basically, its impossible to describe. Anyone that provides a description is describing something else.

        Anything you experience is done so by the agency of your being an individual. While jnana is known by an individual, it's not the individual doing the "knowing", but jnana knowing itself, and the individual being present and thus having a thought *about* the knowing.

        It's something that absolutely doesn't lend itself to verbal description, which is why my attempts at explanations sound a bit dopey.
        • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

          Thu, March 22, 2007 - 10:38 AM
          Jody,

          Truth of our identity uniquely or as One? Or possibly both, because I have a feeling that our Souls have an individual path, maybe circular, which can be felt and is an important role in relating to "One" as well. I find my Self asking lately, "What's the point?" Really, is this whole thing designed to "experience" and "remember"? Why? What for? Did "One" get bored?

          K
          • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

            Thu, March 22, 2007 - 6:49 PM
            <i>Truth of our identity uniquely or as One?</i>

            The truth of our identity, the ground of our being, indeed... the ground of ALL being, is One.

            That said, we're still a bunch of folks having a discussion here. That can't be denied, although I know a few folks who would still make that attempt. Being the people we are is important to ourselves and those who love us. And knowing yourself as the One doesn't change any of that. It provides a different context, not a different experience. This is a mistake many people make, that when they come to realization, everything will be totally different. Realization changes nothing, except the understanding of who you really are. That can have effects that reverberate in your life down the road, but your friends will still be your friends rather than some kind of amorphous extension of yourself. You'll still know yourself as the individual you've always been, it's just that you'll now know the truth that you've never not been, despite the fact that the seeing of it seemed to come at a particular moment in your life.

            As far as why we are individuals, I can't answer that. However, I do know that the One is not bored. All the One knows is the One, and that's been the situation for all eternity and beyond. In other words, I'd speculate that the One is quite happy being the One, since that's all the One knows, at least according to Vedanta.
          • Od
            Od
            offline 97

            Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

            Thu, March 22, 2007 - 8:20 PM
            Katrina -- >>Really, is this whole thing designed to "experience" and "remember"? Why? What for? Did "One" get bored?<<


            From the essay "The Real, The One and The Many In Ecological Thought," by Freya Mathews:

            "This creativity offers clues to the question of why the One differentiates itself into the Many, and hence too to the further question of what value the Many might possess in the larger scheme of things. Perhaps, in order to create itself, the primal One has also to differentiate itself - perhaps its self-actualisation hinges on the intrinsic dynamism which is expressed in its differentiation into the Many. Or perhaps, by bringing forth the Many out of its Oneness, the primal subject is serving its own impulse towards self-increase through self-iteration: it conjures a whole new dimension of itself - the world of finite things - out of its pre-existing identity. Such self-differentiation might even be seen as an expression of something like cosmic 'generosity' (indeed 'love'): the primal One creates out of the fabric of its own being the gift of individual existence to bestow upon its resultant creatures . This giving of the self on the part of the One may confer benefits on the One itself as well as blessings upon the Many. For by bringing relatively independent beings to life, the Creator generates possibilities of relationship or interaction for itself, where its interactions with its creatures and their responses to it may in fact expand, or intensify, or renew, primal being."

            Read the entire article here:

            www.freyamathews.com/
            • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

              Thu, March 22, 2007 - 9:05 PM
              > the primal One creates out of the fabric of its own being the gift of individual existence to bestow upon its resultant creatures
              *****
              This is purely speculative at best, and a clear projection of this individual's belief rather than some kind of nondual truth.

              In other words, she's making it up.
              • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                Thu, March 22, 2007 - 11:55 PM
                I find it funny that you said that.... Because in the bigger scheme of things, are we not in agreement that we're all "making this up?" Of all Spiritual texts, talk and thought, that seems to be the one common thread of many different Spiritual idealogies.

                Jody, can you say for sure that this is not her own interpretation of non-dual truth and accurate? If so, how?

                K
                • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                  Sat, March 24, 2007 - 8:19 AM
                  <i>Jody, can you say for sure that this is not her own interpretation of non-dual truth and accurate? </i>

                  The Upanishads are VERY clear on this particular point. Brahman has no desire and no motive. You cannot (according to Vedanta) ascribe ANY idea or action to Brahman. None. Ever.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                    Sat, March 24, 2007 - 10:00 AM
                    The way you say that makes it sound like a rule. <bad catholic memories coming back> : )
                    What is Vedanta? Forgive me for being ignorant.. I'm just taking it all in and seeing what sticks and what doesn't. Was she speaking in terms of Vedanta? If she wasn't then that statement wouldn't apply at all... I really should know what this Vedanta is. I can't re read what she wrote whilst typing, since I'm responding to you, so I'm going to go back once I've posted this... You may hear more from me, I can't remember if she referenced Vedanta or simply her own ideas on what the "one" is and is possibly doing.

                    K
                    • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                      Sat, March 24, 2007 - 10:04 AM
                      She didn't reference anything that you mentioned so again my initial question remains. According to Vedanta, what she's saying can't be, but I'm not speaking in any other terms but my own heart's. And how, speaking from yours, can you discount with such certainty what she's saying. I got the sense from your posting that you thought what she was saying sounded "ridiculous" even though you didn't come out and say that word.
                      • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                        Sat, March 24, 2007 - 12:42 PM
                        <i>And how, speaking from yours, can you discount with such certainty what she's saying</i>

                        Because I'm convinced, based on the knowledge inside my own heart, that the interpretation of Vedanta provides is about as good a picture of the nondual truth as anything available to us, and it maintains that the nondual reality is at once completely immanent and completely divorced from the world of name and form. In other words, Brahman allows for the existence of name and form by virtue of it's being, but at the same time, Brahman is utterly self-same and desireless. It has no reason to do anything other than be itself. Any creating of beings to express itself is a manifestation of the material word, or the Goddess Shakti if you will, but the Shiva aspect has absolutely no involvement, according to Vedanta and what I've found true in my own experience.
                      • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                        Sat, March 24, 2007 - 12:52 PM
                        Freya Mathews is a respected Australian ecologist and philosopher. In general, she deals with environmental and ecological issues from the perspective of Western philosophy. In this essay, however, she examines a Buddhist perspective on what classical philosophy calls the problem of the One and the Many -- a parallel to what is often termed duality and non-duality, or separation and non-separation, in Eastern thought.

                        Admittedly, she is doing what philosophers do... engaging in speculation, as indicated by her repeated use of the word "perhaps." I find her essay thoughtful, engaging, and particularly relevant in suggesting an answer to those -- often from Eastern traditions -- who believe, or lead others to believe, that the manifest universe is somehow essentially wrong: a mistake to be corrected, a problem to be solved, or a failing to be overcome.

                        Perhaps it is none of those things. The universe might be right and perfect, just as it is, whether we understand how or not. It may well be in the essential nature of the One to manifest the Many -- without having to impute any "desire" or "motive" to the One, but simply by observing it to be so. And in so doing, the opportunity for relational being -- "cosmic love," if you will -- arises with manifestation.

                        The essay as a whole is worth reading, in my opinion, but especially Part III, which contains the paragraph I quoted earlier.



                        • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                          Sat, March 24, 2007 - 2:16 PM
                          > Freya Mathews is a respected Australian ecologist and philosopher
                          *****
                          I'd didn't mean to suggest she wasn't respectable. I'm objecting to attaching her speculation to the idea of a nondual truth underlying all. It's a mistake made often. In the liberal interpretation, it's all one, like a the sum total of everything, the collection of objects. But in the Vedantic sense, the One is one, and underlies all, making that one with the One too. But the One is not a collection of things. Things have a reality to other things, not to the One, according to Vedanta as I understand it.
                    • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                      Sat, March 24, 2007 - 12:25 PM
                      <i>What is Vedanta? </i>

                      Vedanta is the philosophy of the Upanishads as expounded upon by Shankara, the 10th century reformer of Hinduism. It's the literal basis for the nondual ideologies of both Hinduism and Buddhism.

                      I'm kinda foisting it on you right now. I guess I should apologize. While I feel Vedanta is the end-all-be-all of nondual ideology, there are other choices and interpretations out there. Vedanta is only one of these. Your mileage may vary.
                      • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                        Mon, March 26, 2007 - 10:31 AM
                        Jody, I recognize a tremendous amount of intuitive Truth in you. I also sense in your interactions with myself and others a kind of shutting down of others. I realize that there can be an understanding of Truth or a misunderstanding of Truth. I am simply wondering what may reveal itself if you explore your motivations and sense of self and other.
                        That said, Katrina, I would like to speak to what Jody and Vedanta refer to re: the One never actually manifesting as duality.
                        I find that awareness is always here, now - even if "I" get lost in thought. That awareness is aware of the "I" being lost in thought. Any attempt to grasp this awareness with a thought is futile. Thought itself is a dead thing - nonexistent - without awareness. So awareness is who we are - not thought. Thought cannot touch, influence, taint, or change awareness. Awareness stays the same.
                        ALL MANIFESTATION IS THOUGHT. Well, without thought, nothing would be perceived. Is anything perceived in deep sleep? . I'm not talking science. I'm talking "personal" consciousness. For only through direct knowing, not belief or inference or even what we are told, can we come to Truth. Even seeing a simple thing like a table as real is a thought.

                        "If no one is around, does a tree falling make a sound?"
                        NO. Because with no one around, there is no tree.

                        "Nothing has ever existed. No one has ever been born and no one has ever died."
                        Know this beyond a shadow of a doubt, beyond belief and beyond thought.
                        • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                          Mon, March 26, 2007 - 12:25 PM
                          > I also sense in your interactions with myself and others a kind of shutting down of others.
                          *****
                          You should have seen me 7 years ago.

                          > I am simply wondering what may reveal itself if you explore your motivations and sense of self and other.
                          *****
                          That's all worth pondering. I guess I'm up against a colossus – the width and breadth of occluding ideas about self-realization that populate... nae, absolutely overwhelm spiritual culture. That is the fire behind my words as far as I can discern at this moment. I'm just completely fed up with the monstrous preponderance of noncritical thinking that occurs in and around what folks fool themselves into believing are absolute spiritual truths. As the William Holden character says in "Network", "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"

                          There is obviously *much* room for personal improvement in my life. Part of that may be to chill out a bit when it comes to stomping other peoples' ideas about nonduality. But you know what? I've been trying to do that for over the last 10 years. I've made great strides, but the primary impulse to quash ignorance about nondual truths has not changed a bit, almost as if it was hardwired into my brain (or perhaps a manifestation of a psychopathology.)

                          The depressing prevalence of ridiculous notions about the nondual truth almost demands more extreme measures. An excuse for me to be an asshole? Maybe. But I've found gentle prodding to be just an ineffectual as my bluster. But the bluster is more in sync with the manifestation of my personality, so I go with it instead. It turns plenty of people off. But those who get it, get why I do it. They may not agree with the method, but they understand the rhyme and reasoning behind it. That encouragement keeps me going when I know all too well that I'm an ant trying to remove the sands of the Sahara Desert.

                          What does this all say about my sense of self and others? Let's put it this way, I'm twice as hard on myself as I may seem to be on others. For every caning I deliver online, I've given myself three. Fortunately, I'm quite secure in the knowledge that there is no one there to receiving the canings, so while I may give myself grief all the time, it's duration is comfortably brief.
                          • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                            Mon, March 26, 2007 - 2:06 PM
                            Thanx for your response, Jody. Reminds me of satsang I attended with Ramesh couple of years ago. His "style" is to point out that it's ALL God's will. God has "programmed" all of these body/mind mechanisms. So all these expressions are God's - and thus no need for shame/guilt. Re: ignorance.....yes it's a mistaken sense of identity.....and may also be a form of God's expression? I don't know - I guess the gentle prodding is in sync with this personality :)
                            • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                              Mon, March 26, 2007 - 3:01 PM
                              > and may also be a form of God's expression
                              *****
                              Everything is a form of God's expression, which leaves out nothing: the abject ignorance which keeps people from self-realization by what they (incorrectly) believe about self-realization, as well as my ranting about it all.

                              There's another factor at work for me here. I put out in the manner that I would personally respond to. I've learned the most when I've been responsibly slammed by those more knowledgeable than myself. Those who turn away are perhaps not ready to hear it. i've found that those who can get it usually do, despite my stridency and pull-no-punches approach.

                              > thus no need for shame/guilt.
                              *****
                              I'd have to call this Ramesh's attempt to Advaita Shuffle his way out of getting caught with his hands where they didn't belong:

                              guruphiliac.blogspot.com/2005/...g.html
                              • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                                Mon, March 26, 2007 - 4:38 PM
                                Thanx for the site...interesting. A while ago I went through a "let down" re: Papaji - who also did a similar thing. I followed a thread on line and found some quote of Ramana's where he talked about how some awakened ones don't always act saintly. I don't pretend to know the will of God so I don't know why this is. Maybe it's as many say, they are not full-on gurus....maybe we are not seeing a bigger picture...... But there is still sooo much Bhakti for Papaji here. Oh well....
                                • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                                  Mon, March 26, 2007 - 4:56 PM
                                  > some awakened ones don't always act saintly.
                                  *****
                                  Right. Everybody on this planet is a human being first, regardless of their status as enlightened or otherwise. We ALL have our faults. To expect more than that from our gurus – while very common – is utterly unrealistic, in my opinion.
                          • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                            Tue, March 27, 2007 - 12:57 PM
                            Was wondering about the "stomping other people's ideas of non-duality" for you.
                            In true peace, this story cannot survive.
                            "First find out who you are, and then worry about the rest later."
                            Of course, there are still spontaneous acts and unique mind-body expressions :)
                            • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                              Tue, March 27, 2007 - 1:14 PM
                              > In true peace, this story cannot survive.
                              *****
                              In true peace, there is NO story that can survive.

                              Nor does eating, drinking, bathing, laughing, pooping... whatever it is that you are doing to get along in life in that moment.

                              Thus, true peace remains in the purview of meditation. It can be known at will by the jnani, but if that jnani is going to survive in the world, s/he will find their true peace interrupted while they deal with the necessities of their lives.

                              > "First find out who you are, and then worry about the rest later."
                              *****
                              Exactly!
                              • Re: IAM - Instant Advanced Meditation

                                Fri, March 30, 2007 - 10:31 AM
                                "s/he will find their true peace interrupted while they deal with the necessities of their lives."

                                Sat with this one for a while. I'd have to disagree with you here. There have been times when I and everthing disappeared - and the body/mind was quite dysfunctional. And there were other times when identity with I disappeared, but there was still a perception of appearances. Functioning was still happening but it was seen as a happening on the surface of nothing. Whew! Trying to explain this with words :)
                                Ramana also spoke to this: in kevala nirvikalpa samadhi all appearances and separateness merge back into the source, but the vasanas have not been destroyed. In sahaja nirvikalpa, the true peace is not interrupted by the happenings of functioning and the reappearance of appearance.